The two-time Oktagon champion from County Tipperary spoke extensively and candidly about the highs and lows of his fighting career, which has traversed many MMA organisations, taking him from Ireland to Europe and over to the USA.
You can watch the full interview with Will Fleury in the video or read the highlights from our exclusive interview below.
Will Fleury, 36, Oktagon heavyweight and light-heavyweight champion, first things first, I have to ask about the expletive nickname. Where did it come from?
"Oh, since I was a kid. Even before I did any fighting, I've been Will 'Fucking' Fleury my whole life... well, since maybe, like, 14, 15 years old.
"I used to play rugby, so it's a real physical game. And, I had an attitude problem, you know? So, like, if I tackled somebody, I'd always, like, stand over them, like, let them know I just f*cked with them. You're above them. Yeah, like, 'I just f*cking missed you' - you know?
"So, from this, then it'd be like, 'I just got hit by Will 'F*cking' Fleury', you know? Boom, Will 'F*cking' Fleury kind of thing...
"And now, as soon as I started to fight, they were like, 'What's your name?' I was like, 'I'm Will 'F*cking' Fleury'."
So, you were always like this? I mean, regarding your attitude, competitive, furious. Is that right?
"Probably a little bit. Like, I don't know. I wasn't actually that good at rugby. Like, I was a decent player, but, like, it wasn't like I was, like, amazing at this. But I always really wanted to be, like, top, top level at whatever I was doing, you know? Like, as well, every kid is competitive, you know?
"So I think I let that competitive side kind of, like, push me a lot. And then, eventually, when I was in my 20s and I became more into martial arts... I realised, actually, this competitive sh*t is kind of not good for me in a way. As in, it's self-destructive.
"So, like, I felt like if I was trying to constantly compete with other people, actually, I was only kinda messing up my own mind. And eventually you get to a point where you're like, 'Well, as long as you feel like you're getting better at something, that's the really satisfying feeling'.
"So it's like, it's just about improving yourself. You can't beat everybody at everything all the time. It's a stupid attitude to have. Why not just focus on improving yourself?"
'I can't define the result, but I can define my effort'
So you're better at controlling your own emotions now, but your competitiveness was the first step in becoming who you are today, an MMA fighter?
"I think so, yeah. Look, MMA is a very win-or-lose type of sport, but if you have this attitude towards it, it kind of screws you over in a way. So, my focus is just, make me a little bit better. And, like, if I lose the fight but I've tried my best, yeah, f*cking sh*t happens.
"And I think that's really liberating, 'cause I can't define the result, but I can define my effort. So once I know, it's like, 'Okay, man, did you try everything you could have tried?'
"But this thing of, like, having a fear of the end result, you can't live like that. Especially when you're involved, like...
"The result is gonna define your life for the next couple of months at least, you know? And it'll be a long time before you get the chance to right that wrong.
"Like, I've lost fights that I'll probably never get back. It still does eat at you, but if you go into that thing thinking that, like, 'What if I mess it up?' You're already losing it, if you know what I mean. Whereas if you go into that free, kind of feeling liberated and, like, 'Hey, I've done my best. I know that I've tried everything, and I'm just gonna let this thing flow'. It's a much nicer feeling."
Which reminds me, actually, of one of your quotes, which interests me: "Apparently, many people think that this is a tough job, and a tough lifestyle. Actually, it really is not. Get a proper job for a couple of years, and you will see what is tough. This is so easy, and you are so free." Did you really mean it?
"Honestly, yes... I'm not just saying this. Like, okay, physically, there are things I do that are pretty hard. But I choose when I do them. So, like, nobody is my boss. I'm my boss. I've had a real boss in life before. I much prefer to be my own boss.
"Yeah, I have to do some things that are difficult, but I accept them, like, I'm either going to do this to be in that position going into the fight, or I'm not.
'I've been able to just be myself and make a living in life'
"So, do I wanna work hard and be a champion? Yeah, okay, I wanna do that. Cool, that's my motivation to do this thing. So it's difficult, but... I'm the one motivating myself. I'm the one choosing to do this thing.
"...Everyone in life has been at some point where it's like everything is kind of surrounding you, and you can't really control what's going on. Fighting's not like that at all. You have total freedom to be the fighter you're gonna be and to train yourself the way you wanna be."
So is that the main motivation of yours, actually, just being your own boss?
"Yeah. Not even my own boss, but just to live life the way that I want to and be my own man.
"...I was a quantity surveyor in London. That was the job I used to do. And, like, that meant nothing to me. It wasn't something that fulfilled me at all. It was a way to earn money and get a paycheck.
"I loved martial arts even back then. You know, that was when I was in my early 20s. So I was like... Eventually, there came a point where I was like, 'Am I willing to do this for the rest of my life, just to earn enough money to survive?' It's like, 'That would be a pretty sh*t life'.
"So I felt that thing before, and I was like, 'Okay, I could have made pretty decent money doing that, but... the money wouldn't be worth it'. Whereas it's now like, 'Oh, actually, you put enough effort into making pretty decent money doing this thing', and it's been really worth it because the last 10 years have been really enjoyable in my life.
"...I've been very, very lucky in the fact that I've been able to just be myself and make a living in life (out of that). Most people don't get to do that, and I'm very grateful for that."
'You're the token Irish guy, we want you to be like Conor'
You've been a part of many MMA organisations: Bellator, BAMMA, PFL, and now Oktagon. What are the differences between them? Because you are one of the few fighters who have experience in most of the organisations, not only in Europe, but in North America as well.
"There's a different culture everywhere you go. Like, I notice even Bellator and PFL were the two most similar because, like, Bellator got bought by PFL - but I was with them both when they were separate companies.
"So I was with Bellator when it was just Bellator, and even before they started coming to Europe. I got signed... My first fight was in Rome, in Italy, but I got signed before they'd started creating Bellator Europe and doing all the events in Ireland. That was back in 2018.
"I had six fights with them. And, yeah, so they were a decent company to work for. They paid really well, in fairness to them, but, like, it always felt a bit like, 'You're the token Irish guy, and we want you to be like Conor (McGregor)'.
"And I was like, 'I'm not gonna be like Conor, guys. That's just not me. That's not what I'm about'.
Did you feel like they forced you to be a character?
"No, not at all. But it just felt like, 'That's why you're here, because we're looking for another guy who's kind of similar to Conor'. And, like, nobody ever said anything like that, but you always knew - you feel it. So, there was always a funny kind of, like, 'They want you to be this, but actually, you're this' type of feeling with that.
"With the PFL, it was a little bit similar in the fact that, like, they're an American company, they want you to become, like, you know, the Irish guy, brash, blah, blah. And to be honest, maybe I'm more like that now just naturally, but that wasn't part of who I was.
"I was just a pretty respectful martial artist, wanted my martial arts to do the talking and, like, wanted to just be myself, you know, 'cause I was unique.
"... But what I will say is, all of them have different cultures, and all of them have different organisational structures."
People admire the fact that you're quite open about the circumstances surrounding the nine-month doping ban that you received in 2023 for testing positive for Drostanolone. Tell us about that...
"... For the doping, my whole reasoning behind that was like, I was, what, 33 years old at that stage? And I'd had my ass whooped by a bunch of guys who were definitely taking some sh*t.
"I did a fight at light heavyweight... It was actually around the time that I was looking to fight in Oktagon, I'd been offered the PFL contract, and they were like, 'We want the fight at light heavyweight. And if you win this fight at light heavyweight, you'll get a chance to be in the Million Dollar Tournament next year'.
"... In the middle of all that, I took a fight 'cause I was going in training with a Polish guy in the city, and it was like, illegal at the time (due to COVID restrictions), but we were doing this. And he was like, 'Hey, you want to fight this guy two weeks' time in Germany?' I was like, 'Yeah, f*ck it.'
"...So I was in what I thought was pretty good shape, but I was only about 92 kilos. So I was like, 'Yeah, I'll take this fight'. And he was like, 'This guy, he has been training, he's 100 kilos. He wants to fight at light heavyweight'. So I weighed 92 kilos, the fight was at 93 kilos, so I was already underweight.
"And I was like, 'Normally I wouldn't do this, but like, it's COVID, there's no other fights. Yeah, let's do it, come on'. So I did it, and when we got there, like, we got there the day before to weigh in, and the guy was huge. And he was jacked. And I was like, 'I can still whoop his ass'.
"I was like, 'He's gonna gas out, I'm just gonna wait, like first round I'm gonna be a bit tentative, play with him'. Nah, he didn't gas out, like he was just really jacked, really good shape, everything. So, he beat the crap out of me, submitted me in the second round. I've never been toyed with like that in a fight, where the guy was just so much more physically powerful than me.
"And I had that experience, and then when they offered me the fight at light heavyweight, I was like, 'No thanks, I'm not a light heavyweight'. You know? I'd trained with some light heavyweight guys; they were a lot bigger - or back then, they were a lot bigger than me as well, so I was like, 'I'm not gonna get involved with that'...
"And then they were like, 'Okay, but here's the deal. If you win this fight, you go to The Million Dollar Tournament'. Now, at the time, I'd been with my girlfriend for about five years, and she was really anti-steroid and I was like, 'Okay, give me a week and I'll get back to you guys', like 'cause I knew what this meant, you know?
"And I went home, and I was like, 'So, here's the situation...' And she was like, 'You can do what you're gonna do, but don't think that I approve of this', 'cause she was very anti this sort of thing. I was like, 'Well, look. I'm at a stage now in my career where, I've got to make something of this, and if I don't, I'll probably feel a bit shitty.'
"...And then, as well, just the chance to be financially secure for the million quid, like, yeah. It's not bad money... I was like, 'No. I could win this, set up a gym, do a lot of amazing stuff with my life'.
"... I think a lot of it came from the fact of, 'Well, if I do this, there's a damn good chance that I actually do win this thing and everybody thinks you're not that guy (who can't do it)'... So, there was a little bit of showing everybody, 'F*ck you, I'm actually the man as well'.
'Everyone in that tournament was taking something'
"So then, obviously, I started and did it and I won the fight against Kris (Krzysztof) Jotko. Jotko also tested positive, and then, in that tournament, there were 10 guys in the tournament, and on that one night in Las Vegas, six out of 10 guys tested positive.
"Now, if you ask me, were the other four guys clean? Not a f*cking chance. Everyone in that tournament was taking something. Now, a lot of the guys had come from middleweight, so like, you know, if you're gonna be a middleweight and move up and gain 10 kilos of muscle mass, yeah, there's probably some steroid usage going on.
"So, what I'm amazed by was, the fact that the PFL kept Rob Wilkinson, they kept Thiago Santos, 'cause they were like, 'Yeah, it's okay if you're famous and you dope, Don't worry. But see these guys? Get rid of them'.
"It's a very mixed moral message, isn't it? Like, 'cause like, they were trying to obviously... exposing all the results and going so public with it and all that. It's like they're trying to make a point. But then they were like, 'But see these guys? Yeah, they're okay. That's fine'."
Do you regret being a part of that?
"Not really, to be honest. And I get asked that question a lot, and I have to be like, I have to be honest about this."
Maybe a better question is: Would you do it differently if you were in the same situation?
"Yes, I would definitely do it differently, but I wouldn't say I wouldn't do it. And I know that's controversial, but, the reality is, most guys in high-level sports are doing some sort of performance-enhancing. Well, there are guys who aren't, and I admire those guys. Honestly, I do.
"But, here's the reality of it - the first fight I was on that I was juiced up for was the one I got caught, right? And I was like, 'Oh, sh*t I'm 1-1'. Whereas, I know a lot of guys who've been juiced up their whole career, and they never, ever failed the test. Or, you know, they never even got tested...
"So, it's funny. I would say if we're gonna have a system, make it extremely fair to the point where nobody can cheat, which is definitely not the system we have with testing at the moment... or hands off, let it go, and do whatever.
'Most guys in high-level sports are doing some sort of performance-enhancing'
"We definitely can't get to a place where there's 100% transparency and 100% (chance) that if you're taking something, you will get caught. That is not the case, and I don't see that it will be. I understand that people are gonna try their absolute best to do that, though."
What role has the doping scandal played in terms of motivating you for your recent successes, at Oktagon, for example?
"I think a lot of it (my motivation) came from, like... I always felt like I was a really good fighter. And I never felt like I got to prove this the way that I could've.
"So, I've had a chip on my shoulder about being kind of not given opportunities and not, like, getting the credit I've probably yearned for, for being a really high-level fighter.
"Because I would travel and I would, like, spar guys in the UFC, like, high-level guys in the UFC, and some of my training partners were considered high-level guys. And I'd always feel like, 'Wow. I can beat the crap outta all these guys'."